ok so ken you have the best (as far as I know) lossless image comrpession, now mabe you could try your hand at audio?
Awesoken at
Back in the year 2000, I was busy converting Voxlap from 8-bit to 32-bit color graphics. I was looking for a lossless graphics standard for 32-bit color. GIF doesn't support it, and JPG is lossy. I knew about TGA... but its compression is lousy. I wondered if there was something better out there. So I found PNG. I was rather impressed with it. And this is how PNGOUT was born. It started as a learning experience. Also, I was interested in learning about the popular ZIP standard.
Here are 2 interesting lossless compressed audio standards that I'm aware of: LPAC, FLAC I don't know which one is better. You can find them with google : )
One of these days, I imagine I'll want to compress sound losslessly ... but the need hasn't come up yet. I rarely record long sound effects. And when I write music, I prefer MOD-style format which is much smaller than MP3/OGG.
KillerQ13 at
Awesoken said
And when I write music, I prefer MOD-style format which is much smaller than MP3/OGG.
I like the merger of the two ends. MOD tracker data with MP3/OGG samples (such as the MO3 file format). BTW, do you have any more KDM files? I really liked the ones you posted on the website.
Awesoken at
MOD tracker data with MP3/OGG samples (such as the MO3 file format).
Using lossy MP3/OGG style compression on instrument samples is generally a bad idea because those formats are optimized for the sound being played back at the same sample rate. If you play them back at much higher or lower rates, you'll be more likely to hear the lossy compression artifacts.
One of the simplest non-lossy compression algorithms for sound is to pre-filter the data by subtracting neighboring samples (sometimes called Delta PCM). Then if you ZIP this data, you'll get a ZIP file that's about 30% smaller than before.
BTW, do you have any more KDM files? I really liked the ones you posted on the website.
Thanks! Yes, I have others, but they aren't as good as the ones on my website.
BarrenSoul at
Saddly for the formats you mentioned they arn't as good as the modern ones
http://members.home.nl/w.speek/comparison.htm
well I guess the world of png got lucky that the great ken silverman needed it for personal use so he improved it (no sarcasim)
Awesoken at
Nice link, BarrenSoul. I just mentioned those formats that I found in my recent travels. LPAC has a very easy library, and FLAC is completely free. It looks like these formats still win in speed - and for games, decompression time should be considered. I just don't think it's worth choosing a format that gives 1% better compression if it takes more than 50% longer to decompress.
BTW, PNGOUT is most certainly NOT the best lossless image compressor! It's merely the best PNG compressor ... and since PNG is popular these days, I win : )
BarrenSoul at
Yeah I meant png format lossless :) I have a hard time wording things correctly.
BarrenSoul at
is there like a 50% barrier regarding compreshion?
Awesoken at
is there like a 50% barrier regarding compreshion?
No. Obviously, it depends on the input and the algorithm used. For CD quality music, that's just where the average happens to be for most files.
counting_pine at
Awesoken said
PNGOUT is most certainly NOT the best lossless image compressor! It's merely the best PNG compressor
Such modesty!
I'll agree that it's a damn good program, especially with its ability to import multiple sources, but I wouldn't call it the best until it can beat OptiPNG and PNGCrush with a bit more consistency :P
Awesoken at
I wouldn't call it the best until it can beat OptiPNG and PNGCrush with a bit more consistency :P
By your definition, no program would be the best. PNGOUT does beat the rest consistently if you're willing to spend the extra time trying various command line switches for each file.
BTW, PNGCrush is obsolete. OptiPNG is just a newer version of it with native Windows support, better memory management, and some other little enhancements.
counting_pine at
PNGOUT does beat the rest consistently if you're willing to spend the extra time trying various command line switches for each file.
Can PNGOUT actually beat any of the (currently) 1080 trials on any possible colour mode on any PNG file if you spend long enough tweaking the options?
OptiPNG is just a newer version of it with native Windows support, better memory management, and some other little enhancements.
True, but it isn't better on all counts.
Apart from -nc, OptiPNG doesn't seem to let me choose which colour type I want to output to, and sometimes the automatic choice isn't the best.
Because PNGCrush uses zlib, I can get a PNG of the colour type I want without having to wait too long.
OK, yeah, OptiPNG is basically PNGCrush but better, sorry to pick nits.
counting_pine at
Feature Comparisons:
PNGOut
User can choose the colour type
User can choose the bit depth
User can stop early with Escape
Almost certainly uses a more intelligent algorithm
Usually gets best results (In my experience)
OptiPNG
Can try all filter types with one command
Uses a faster algorithm, and can more easily aford to do 1080 trials
Can abort trials early if the IDAT goes longer than the current smallest IDAT
Can output c0 and c2 with basic transparency
Can output interlaced images
Allows wildcards, so can do multiple images with one command
Keeps original IDAT if it's smaller
More efficient and more trials than PNGCrush
PNGCrush
User can choose the colour type
User can choose the bit depth
Some of OptiPNG's features
This list isn't definitive; feel free to amend/append
There are more features for OptiPNG, although it's quality, not quantity that counts:)
BarrenSoul at
just remeber this is the AUDIO compresshion post mkay? I already have a png out comparisson forum that this feedback would be better placed in BUT BUT BUT don't let this discourage you! feedback and comparsion is a GOOD thing becuase then people learn! and learning is good BUT please don't let this turn into an argument ok? thanks.
excuse my spelling it's the mornig and I'm tired -_-'
counting_pine at
Sorry to hijack your thread, BarrenSoul.
I'll stop talking about PNG utilities here. I may post later in another thread. I've just found out about advpng, so I'm going to take a look at that one as well and put up a more comprehensive list, if anyone's actually interested.
Are there any lossless audio formats around that use deflate compression? That's what's used in zip and png, isn't it? If there are, then you don't have to worry about implementing another compression algorithm.